“I had no illusions about losing popularity – in fact, I almost did it intentionally. A guy from the label said, ‘Are you crazy?’ I said, ‘Yes, but I assume the consequences’”: John McLaughlin’s career outside the lines

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and jazz musicians such as Miles Davis, John Coltrane, and Tony Williams were eager to break free from the boundaries of acoustic jazz.

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These three albums turned the jazz rule book on its head and created something entirely new – jazz fusion. It was loud and received harsh criticism from critics, but it was impossible to stop.

It was an incredible time, the late '60s transitioning into the '70s," says McLaughlin. "I just happened to be right in the middle of it all. It was really just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

He founded the Mahavishnu Orchestra in 1971 to play a fearless and intense style of this new music. Later, in the mid-1970s, he changed direction to explore Indian music with the group Shakti.

Currently leading John McLaughlin And The 4th Dimension, the guitar master remains a passionate musical innovator, his incredible speed on the guitar equaled only by his unrelenting passion to continually improve and hone his skills. “I think music reminds us of where we're from and brings us all together,” he says. “It's truly wonderful.”

What inspired you to record your recent performances at Ronnie Scott's in London?

We spent two nights there and Ronnie's has a built-in recording facility, which is very convenient. I specifically requested to play at Ronnie's. It's lovely to play at the Barbican or the Royal Festival Hall, those are such great venues. Maybe it's just getting older and nostalgic, but I thought it would be wonderful to be back at Ronnie's after all these years. I was part of the in-house bands at Ronnie's back in 1966/67; it's been about 50 years since I played there with the Mike Carr Trio - Mike Carr is an excellent British Hammond organist.

A concert hall can be great, but the intimate connection between the audience and the band – I prefer that.

That was the central idea behind the era of the sixties, the Hammond organ, and I'm deeply grateful to Ronnie personally for numerous reasons. Many musicians owe a significant debt of gratitude to him. You may be too young to recall the original Wardour Street club before he relocated to Frith Street in the early sixties. The first club was small, but when he moved he kept the original location open as a spot for young musicians, giving us a place to perform. It was a kind and generous gesture.

. How nice!

What's the difference between playing in a club and a big hall?

She joined the band. Jack was already somewhat of a star in the four-piece band Lifetime, but even Mills was playing mainly in clubs in America in the 60s and 70s.

There's an incredibly personal vibe in clubs that's really tough to replicate in a concert hall. The sound of a venue can be fantastic, but that personal connection between the audience and the band, I really enjoy it - I truly do. They can see the dirt under your fingernails.

You mentioned organ trios were popular in the 1960s – the original formation of Lifetime was an organ trio.

Absolutely. I didn't even know Larry was with the band until I got to New York, but I was thrilled. He was one of the new generation of Hammond players who came out of Jimmy Smith's style of funky R&B, which I adored. But Larry brought a different type of chordal harmony that McCoy Tyner was doing with John Coltrane in the early 1960s. He brought that to the Hammond organ, and I thought that was magnificent. On the road, we were making $20 a night back then. Not a lot, but it was a fantastic experience to play with Tony.

One evening at a club, Miles Davis said, “It’s time to form your own band.” That was a really shocking statement for me.

When you formed the Mahavishnu Orchestra, did you think about the organ trio format?

I was looking for a unique sound. Keep in mind, I'd been playing for many years. We're talking the early 1960s, with artists like Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames. I loved it, but by the time I'd been with Tony and Lifetime for two years, and also played with Larry Young, I was feeling stifled. On top of that, I wanted a violin in my band and I've always had a special fondness for the Fender Rhodes.

I enjoyed watching Billy play alongside everyone else.

The keyboardist responded, "Guitar would be right up my alley, and we'd want you on it." Oh man! "Sorry Miroslav, but I’m under orders. I’ve got to put my own band together." He said, "Listen, have you heard Jan Hammer? He’s a great piano player."

He was touring with Sarah Vaughan at the time, which speaks for itself. So I called him and he agreed - he wanted to get out from under the established style, to create new sounds and, in a sense, move beyond the original ones, and he was open to that. Of course, he played Fender Rhodes, which was ideal for me.

How did the jazz-rock sound evolve?

Between 1964 and 1965, he sometimes plays two or three notes at once, and you hear these harmonics coming out.

That's what I loved about Jimi Hendrix, he was finding a way to get a new sound and already by that time, we're talking mid-1960s, I was a little tired with the kind of jazz tone of the guitar - this pure, almost smooth sound on an electric guitar, you know, like a nylon string instrument.

The traditionalists have always been around and they’ve always believed they know what true jazz is all about

Music is pure passion, and Miles always played with that same passion on fire. Jimi opened a new world for electric guitar players, teaching them to coax multiple tones out of a single note.

It's hard to put my finger on it, but Jimi had a profound influence on me as far as the tone of the guitar is concerned, and I think he had a ripple effect on more than one generation.

How significant was the influence of Lifetime on your approach?

When Lifetime first started, Tony was already really unique. I loved Tony because he was carefree, he was a true original and he had fresh, innovative ideas about playing the drums. I loved that.

Inside a couple of months I had to get a big amplifier and trade in my hollow-body for a solid-body – the hollow-body guitar breaks down with high volume. Tony was always loud and powerful because he loved rock and roll. There's good rock and roll and bad rock and roll, just like there's good jazz and bad jazz. Good and bad exists everywhere.

Were the Mahavishnu Orchestra strongly disliked by music critics?

We got heavily criticized by a lot of the jazz musicians. Purists have always existed and consistently believed they have a grasp on what true jazz is, always seeming to converge on this issue but not in agreement.

When I began playing with Zakir Hussain, the tabla player in Shakti, he faced harsh criticism from the press for collaborating with musicians like me - it was somehow making the music impure. I mean, it's completely absurd. Paco De Lucia, when we started playing flamenco together, purists claimed, “It's over now! The authentic flamenco is finished.”

When you challenge someone's comfort zone or strongly held preferences, they often become uneasy and apprehensive, demonstrating a natural anxiety response.

Those music purists are often frustrating. They're the "self-proclaimed gatekeepers" who claim to know what music is all about and only accept their own narrow tastes. Their inflexibility can make it difficult for them to accept new and innovative ideas in music.

Bringing Pharaoh Sanders in there, just like screaming saxophones are screaming guitars, but it's wonderful. I like it, but the critics said, “What's he doing? He's got such a raw sound!” They can't quite grasp it.

When you begin to challenge the status quo in what they hold dear, they tend to get nervous and anxious, saying "This isn't the authentic thing, it's incorrect!" but it's everywhere. Who worries about that? There's no need to. As Oscar Wilde put it, "They love you, they hate you, as long as they don't ignore you."

Was it like learning a new musical language when you played with Zakir Hussain in Shakti?

You're noticing the similarities between Indian music and jazz, aren't you? They're actually more connected than you might think. Music is one key area where they overlap. It's really unique – to my knowledge, they're the only two cultural expressions that share a common foundation, which lies in rhythm and spontaneous, improvisational elements. As everyone was exploring the counterculture of the late 1960s, many people were drawn to Eastern philosophy in search of answers to life's big questions. And as soon as you start exploring the East, you're bound to come across Indian culture, which has been pondering these same questions for thousands of years – and their music is a fascinating part of that tradition.

I go back with Zakir to '69 when we both came to the US. We had a mutual friend who owned a music store and I asked him to call me if any Indian musicians walked in wanting to give lessons. That's when he called me about Zakir, and I asked, "What instrument does he play?" He said, "He plays the tabla." I replied, "Actually, I don't study the tabla, can he give me a vocal lesson?"

I took matters into my own hands - and I'm no singer, that's for sure! Zakir doesn't do much better, but he gave me a singing lesson. After that, we had a good laugh and became friends somehow.

We're not the only ones looking beyond our borders for musical inspiration... millions in India are drawn to Western music

By 1972 I'd studied North Indian music. In 72 I was learning South Indian music, effectively getting the best of both worlds. By 1973 I'd met L Shankar, who was the lead violinist of the Shakti band, and I teamed up with the percussionist of my teacher, Guru Ramanathan, and that was the first Shakti group.

I'd been studying music theory for several years, so I was familiar with the patterns of rhythm, and to some extent, I understood the Indian system of ragas. I was linking that to my own knowledge of Western harmony. Western music is built around various scales because harmony is essentially the combination of multiple notes from a specific scale. This is like looking at harmony from a vertical perspective - focusing on chords rather than scales.

I was playing acoustic guitar, and by the end of '75, that was it for the Mahavishnu Orchestra. I told the guys, "Sorry, I'm going to have to let you all go, I just want to concentrate on the Shakti group."

By the end of 1975, I had gone to India, where I met Vikku Vinayakram, the ghatam player. I continued studying and performing with renowned masters such as Zakir. He is probably the best tabla player alive. I believe the only person who was superior to him at the time was his dad, Alla Rakha.

How have the influences from India directly impacted your performance?

I've been visiting India for years. We're not the only ones in the West looking to India and other places for inspiration. Actually, musicians in India, who number in the millions and are incredibly talented, are also drawn to outside influences. They've been listening to and have been inspired by Western music.

An example of that fusion sound can be heard in an album I did in India about 10 years ago. A track features two guitarists, one using a standard guitar, the other a zitar – that's an electric version of the traditional Indian instrument, the sitar – and Niladri Kumar is the zitar player. The way Kumar plays the electric sitar brings out a blend of Western and Indian influences. It's not a forced blend either.

I don't have a desire become an Indian musician. I've done that. I've come to realize after years of working on Indian instruments that I'm a guitar player. I'm not talented enough to play more than one instrument, but the influences and the knowledge that I've looked for and studied in Indian music are really because I love that music and I want to understand it more. In fact, the more I understand it, the more I understand the musicians themselves.

It's like understanding a language. I live in a French-speaking area and you can't get into a French person's thinking without the language - it's impossible. To grasp someone's thoughts and customs, you need their language, so I needed the language of Indian music to communicate coherently with my Indian brother musicians.

Even though we're thousands of miles away, we're growing up and getting to know each other through music and love, and the truth is, if you don't really love it, then it just isn't going to work.

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Do famous guitarists ever feel pressure from other musicians to live up to your reputation?

Sometimes I feel that way. It's really endearing when people compliment me and give me praise; but honestly, it doesn't amount to anything. It's nice to have a boost to my confidence, but I'm also painfully aware that my ego is a bit ridiculous - so I try not to let it sway me.

I want to be honest about my thoughts here without coming across as overly humble, as humility can sometimes be misinterpreted as fake modesty. To be clear, my words reflect my genuine feelings. I'm aware that I've had a great deal of success in the past, but it's only fueled my motivation. Throughout my entire life, my instrument and music have been my priorities, and this focus hasn't wavered one bit.

There were financial consequences – we didn’t sell many records – and that’s why everyone was upset with me

At 75 years old, I'm still committed to learning each day, and I still work on a daily basis because I feel like I have a lot more to discover. Being aware of my own ignorance has created this unrelenting desire in me to gain more knowledge.

Has Mahavishnu Orchestra had a lasting influence on your musical career?

I see it as a particularly bright spot. For me, it was a very positive experience that happened in my life. Even back then, I was really into meditation and becoming more aware of how narrow-minded I was being. The incredible external success that happened almost overnight with Mahavishnu, I couldn't believe it. It was like a phenomenon – and they fade in and out just like the tides, like day and night.

I didn't expect my popularity to drop, let alone intentionally let it happen. In fact, when I left Mahavishnu and mentioned to my agent and record company that I wanted to start Shakti, they thought I was crazy. My record company, CBS, was skeptical, with one executive joking, "What are you going to do, play acoustic guitar with a bunch of Indians? Have you gone insane?" I just said, "Yes, but I understand the risks."

That's really all it was. We faced financial consequences because we didn't sell that many records, and that's why they were upset with me. Mahavishnu was very lucrative for the record companies.

For me, the Mahavishnu Orchestra is really significant. I wouldn't be playing music the way I do if I hadn't been exposed to them. I wouldn't be the person I am today without the influence of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, so I owe them a lot.